002: Behind the Name

-Transcript-

Bruce: Welcome to week two of our Unshackled Love podcast. My name is Bruce Payne and I'm sitting here next to my wonderful, gorgeous wife. 

Kaila: Kaila Payne, and for those of you who are just joining us and don't quite know us yet, I mean it is only week two, 

Bruce: Yes, but we made it back for a week two. It's like we didn't just get shut down after being a pilot episode.

We actually made it to week two. 

Kaila: Yeah, now we have fancy intro music. We're starting to be more official. But for those of you who don't know us, we are two public school teachers in the greater Austin area. We are blessed to have nine beautiful, mostly wonderful children. 

Bruce: Crazy like their mommy. 

Kaila: Ranging all the way from a senior in high school to a kindergartner and everything in between.

So yes, our life is definitely crazy and busy, full of fun and full of love. And tonight we wanted to come share with you the meaning behind the name, Why we chose Unshackled love as the name of our podcast, what it means to us individually, but then, what it means to us as parents and how God calls us to have unshackled love.

Bruce: Yeah. And real quick, I would love to give a shout out to Sabrina Upton. Thank you. Thank you very much for letting us use that song that you guys heard as our intro. The song's name is Unshackled, it's by her husband David Upton. Over 10 years ago, I first heard the song while attending Saddleback Church in the Overdrive Venue.

 It's a song that both my wife and I have listened to regularly for the last 10 plus years. It's a song that's had a positive effect on both of our lives, our kids' lives. My parents' lives as well, especially my dad, who we'll get more into later in some different episodes, but it's a song that's near and dear to our heart.

It's a song that's made its way from iPods to iPads to iPhones, and it's still on our playlist to this day. So Sabrina, thank you very much for letting this song be a part of our journey. It's something that. It's very important to us. So thank you very much. 

Kaila: Yeah. So blessed to be able to use a song. So I, you will learn that I am the nerdy one in thisrelationship.

Bruce: She is definitely the nerd and I am the ADHD boy who likes to go outside and run around and play. 

Kaila: And I like to research and study and learn, and...

Bruce: Be a nerd. 

Kaila: Yep, Be a nerd. So I actually looked up the dictionary definition for the word unshackled because I wanted to know what does the dictionary say? What is the actual definition? And so we have one form that says to release from shackles chains or other physical restraints. But then we have this other definition that says to liberate and set free. And I just love, because that's to me, What unshackled means to liberate and set free. Why don't you share with us what does unshackled mean to you personally? 

Bruce: Yeah. The, the word set free, I mean, there's so many things in life that hinder us from loving people the way God intended for us to love people. Right. And I think a lot of that is based on hurts, based on past mistakes, based on things that have gone on in our lives that we can't get over, right?

The things that sit there and, and take us to a place that we were never meant to be, which is bondage. And looking at that, you know, for me it's. Two or three different things. I look on that profoundly affect my ability to love others, including you and including our kids, and even people around me. Right?

And, the first thing I'll sit there and talk about is my divorce. You know, prior to be married to Kayla, I was married to my high school sweetheart. And, if you would've asked most people in our family, I mean, we would probably would've been the last people to get divorced. And just due to life and circumstances, some stuff happened and the divorce happened.

The reality is, after the divorce, I went through a really dark time, you know, a time where I relied on reading, reading Proverbs. A time on where I, felt really bad, you know, not for necessarily what I did, but because I felt like I let my kids down. I felt unloved. I felt like I wasn't lovable. And it was all lies that the, the devil was preaching to me, right?

And it's something that needed to be set free from. And as a result of not being set free and being shackled at that point in time, I mean, I was withholding things from people around me in terms of love. And it was because I was so caught up in what I wasn't at that time, that I was not able to do what I was intended to do by God.

 Another area in my that I struggle with, you know, if, you talk to people who know me well, I like to have an adult beverage here or there. And when I sit there, say an adult beverage. I mean when people sit there and say, "Hey, you wanna go have a beer?" And I can sit there and honestly say, I don't know when the last time I've had "a beer" is. I mean, I'm a big dude to begin with and I like to have fun.

And for a lot of years that fun, you know, focus or centered around having a drink or five or seven or four or three, whatever it might been, right? And so, if you were to go to AA right now and look at their website, it talks about what an alcoholic is. Even without reading that beforehand, I knew I had a problem with alcohol. Reading their definition solidifies the fact that I am an alcoholic. If you a little bit further past that, I'm a third generation alcoholic. At least if, if I had a guess, probably more than that. And so over the years I've used alcohol to cope with certain things. I've used alcohol as an escape. I've used alcohol to sit there and put me into place.

That makes me be able to turn my brain off, or at least that's the, the illusion I give myself. You know, someone who's ADHD to the max, it's hard to turn my brain off. And so I'd rely on that often to sit there and and turn my brain off. So between my divorce and alcohol, and even some anger and some other stuff going on, I mean, I was withholding love for my wife and kids that I should have been provided from the start. 

And so, one of the first bullet points I'm gonna go over is you need to over be able to overcome your hurts in your past in order to love others like God intended. If you sit there and you look at Psalms 107 verses 10 through 16, it says, 

"Some sat in darkness and deepest gloom. Imprison and iron chains of misery, they rebelled against the words of God scoring the council of the most. That is why he broke them with hard labor. They fell and no one was there to help them. Lord help. They cried in their trouble and he saved them from their distress. He'd led them from the darkest and deepest gloom. He snapped their chains. Let them praise the Lord for his great love and for the wonderful things he has done for them where he broke down their prison gates of bronze. He cut apart their bars of iron for me."

I was in that area that was dark and deep and full of gloom. I was in that place that felt like Groundhogs Day over and over and over again, waking up saying, 

"Hey God, why me? Why now?"

Right. And that felt like I had nothing left to give and that's not what God intended for our lives. You know? There are so many things, like I mentioned, that we can be shackled to, whether it's our past, whether it's addiction, whether it's anger, whether it's pornography, whatever it might be, right?

There's things that we are shackled to that God never intended us to be shackled to. 

Kaila: And for me, I love that you said that because I was not raised in the church, I wasn't raised knowing religion or knowing God or that... those weren't conversations that we had in our home. In fact, it was kind of more this assumption that good people do good things. And, you know, sometimes you make mistakes in life and you grow up and you figure it out. 

And so there wasn't a lot of guidance or justification or like reasoning for why to be good or why to make good decisions. But I figured, you know, like that good people do good things. So I'll make some good choices on the surface.

I had a very, picturesque lifestyle. I was volunteering and I was helping out, and I was doing all these things, a, b, c, d, but in my private life, I was making really poor choices and so, I was kind of living in that prison and I, and I felt that depression. I experienced depression at a very young age, and I just didn't know how to overcome it.

I was just feeling that doom and gloom and not knowing where to turn. I didn't have that hope, that had never been shared with me until I started going to church with Bruce, and that was when I had my come to Jesus moment, and that's actually when I heard Dave Upton sing that song, Unshackled. And that song is just so personal for me because it was when I really started to grieve my sin.

I don't think that that's something... I don't think you can have a true come to Jesus moment until you grieve your sin and you feel that weight of the decisions and the choices that you're making. And for me, it was just realizing that God didn't want me to be doing those things. He didn't want me living that way.

He didn't want me struggling with depression. He had hope and he had love, and I just needed to accept that and know that He accepted me as I was, but that He loved me so much, He didn't want to leave me there. And so for me, you know, my life verse is second Corinthians 5:17, "Anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life has gone and a new life has begun."

For me, being unshackled was literally breaking that bondage from the old me who I was, the way I thought, the way I lived, and knowing that I was able to free myself from sin because I now was able to bond myself to Christ and I was able to rely on his strength to stop my sin and say no to those temptations and turn the other way. I was given hope and purpose in Jesus. And so for me that unshackled was really just getting rid of that old lifestyle, that bondage of sin, becoming a new person, knowing that I had the power in Jesus to change my legacy, not only for myself, but for our family, for our kids.

And even though that happened, I'm still human. So I'm not perfect and, you know, I still struggle on different struggles now, but you know, I love how Paul shared in Romans chapter seven, he said, I "know that nothing good lives in me. That is in my sinful nature. I wanna do what's right, but I can't, and I wanna do what is good, but I don't..."

 You know, there's this struggle and it's like sometimes we get so wrapped up in either emotion or we respond to a certain situation and it's not in our best. It's not always going to be. Our first nature is sin. So that's gonna be the first thing we go to, and it really takes a lot of discipline to step away from that and to say, Okay, I know this is my sin nature. I'm aware of it, but I'm not shackled to that and I can turn, I can choose to turn to Jesus instead. 

Bruce: Oh, absolutely. And I think a big thing, you know, when you look at both of our past and our childhoods and growing up and everything that we've been through, is that stuff happens for a reason. And whether it's good or bad, God can take what has happened in our past and use it for good.

And if you look at Romans 8:28, it says, "And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good, for those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them."

I mean in our marriage, we've had some awesome people who have been, you know, sounding boards for us, people who have given us wisdom along the way.

And I had a coach I worked for at one point in time, and I'll never forget, you know, I was going through back surgery and some other things going on and he sent me that verse. It's, a verse in my email. It's a guy who I still texted this day and I look up to as a godly man, and he's like, "Bruce, Regardless of what you've been through and what you've experienced, God's going to use it for his kingdom. God's gonna use it for his growth."

And, it's realizing that... hey, guess what? Until you go through that and you learn from that and you, accept it, and you ask forgiveness, as Kaila said, you're gonna have a hard time loving other people if you don't love yourself, right? And so that bondage that you're going through of not being able to love yourself based on who you were or what you did that you think it's so heinous.

The reality is God says He wants you unshackled from that. He wants you to be able to be set apart from it so that you can move forward and love people the way He wanted you to love people. And so that is how you sit there and see how the song unshackled, but how the word unshackled unfolded our lives.

And as parents, you know, we've come together and put a couple different points together, that we try to use in terms of unshackled love with our kids aswell. 

Kaila: And those three points are we need to show unshackled genuine love to our children. We need to love them and parent them in discipline. And then we also need to love them through conflict.

And so the first one is just genuine love and I think that, again, just going back to my, come to Jesus, I struggled with loving myself for most of my life. And when I started my relationship with Jesus, one of the things that I would pray every day is, "Lord, help me to love myself the way that you love me."

 That was, you know, a prayer that, I knew that truth, that God loved me, but I didn't feel like God loved me and I had to pray every day for my feelings to start matching my thoughts. I knew God loved me and I had to start believing it. And then when I started having children of my own and they started growing and seeing all of their different personalities and how they were young, I just, I experienced this new love.

As I start to see them form into these individuals and their personalities and their quirkiness and their attitudes, and they're just so unique and I love them so much, and then I just am in such awe and wonder that God created them... 

Bruce: in his image. 

Kaila: In his image in the way in which He wanted. 

Bruce: I think real quick, just like to cut in. It's very easy, right? You know, with us with nine kids, we can sit there and say, "Hey, we have a couple kids like this, or a couple kids who act like that." The reality is there are certain kids that we have that are easier for us to get along with or easier for us to see eye to eye with, per se. Right? And we also have other kids that are more challenging just based on how we're made.

But the reality is the end of the day, God made these kids the way He wanted in His image. They might be our dna, but guess what? It's for his purpose. And His purpose trump's our dna. 

Kaila: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, because we are body, mind, and spirit. We talked about that in the last podcast. If you haven't go listen to it.

And so even though their bodies, you know, they might look more like me or look more like Bruce, their mind and their soul is 100% uniquely given to them by God. And so what's crazy is that even as much as we love our children to think that God loves them way more. 

Bruce: God loved us enough. To let us have them.

Kaila: Oh, absolutely. I pray that every night. Thank you for allowing me to be the mother of these children, because it is. It's a blessing to get to know these children and to be entrusted with them. You know, God entrusted me with these children to raise them and that that's my responsibility, or our responsibility.

But just to see them and then to genuinely love them through every age and stage and trial because they're growing. And so, you know, sometimes we might get frustrated because, you know, there's tantrums or they're starting to test boundaries or they're not making good choices, or, you know, whatever it may be.

We can get frustrated with that. But, they're growing and God loves them all the same. And in fact, God loves that earnesty and that just pureness about children. In fact, you know, Luke 18:16, Jesus said, "Let the children come to me and don't stop them. For the kingdom of God belongs to those who are like these children."

Bruce: Just this past weekend, I'm sitting here smiling and laughing at my wife. We had a moment that kind of fits within this on Sunday. I mean, for us, our weekends are crazy, you know, with nine kids and five who play sports, two who have jobs, two little kids who barely speak English, going, "I want to go do stuff and have fun."

 I mean, there's a lot going on. And this weekend was one of those weekends where for us it was an awesome weekend to be home and in town. You know, a lot of weekends were either in Houston or Dallas or San Antonio, even outta state at points in time for our kids and their athletics, and we have decided to attend a church that has a Sunday night service because that is the one night of the week or the one point in time of the week that doesn't really conflict with a lot of other things going on .

Kaila: Until they had to mess with my schedule last weekend and plan a soccer game. Sunday night.

Bruce: Sunday night, South Austin. And so we're sitting there and I was like, "Hey, you all know what? Hey honey. What do you think about going to church in the morning? I mean, our boys' game will get over at 11 o'clock. It'll only be a few minutes late to church."

And she goes, "You know, I don't like being late."

Little did she know and, and to kind of set the story a little bit more, little did she know before I'd even walked upstairs to give this idea to her, I happened to be downstairs and four of our little kids, and by little kids, I mean under the age of nine [and there's actually five, nine and under] but four, under the age of nine, had already had their Bibles packed, ready to go.

And so knowing this, I had happened to walk upstairs and say, "What do you think about going to church after the soccer game? She's like, "You know, I don't like to be late"

 I was like, "Okay. Yes, dear." as any good husband would say... and I'm laughing in my head knowing it, and I'm like, Man, did I just make her feel bad or that her feelings were not valid?

And so I waited until I get on the road, so that way she couldn't throw something at me. Just kidding. She wouldn't do that anymore... but I waited as I get in the car and I'm snickering, I'm smiling. I'm with our son, who's nine years old, going to the soccer game. 

In my head, I'm like, I'm stoked.

I get to go to 5:00 PM service and not be interrupted and get to be on time. And, little did she know that when I had that thought, when I had talked to her, I had already had a plan. And so anyways, I give her a call and I said, "Hi honey." 

And she's like, "Hey, what's up?" 

And I said, "I feel bad." 

And she goes, "Why?"

I go, "Because you wanna know what? I had already seen the kids with their Bibles before I had come upstairs"

And she goes, "It's okay. I just need to get over myself"

 And so often. I mean, how many times can we sit there and say, as parents, we just need to get over ourselves and say, "Hey, it's not about us, it's about God."

Right? It's not about what necessarily we need or want in that moment, but it's about our children and what they need as well. And I mean, just like this, that says, don't stop them. We have little kids who want to go worship God with their Bibles and give it offering, and we're more worried about us being on time.

Kaila: Yeah. I mean, guilty as charged. When you come down and you see four kids, bright eyed, bushy tales with their bibles and hands saying, "Do we get to go to church this morning?" You know, it's like, how do you say no to that? And then it is, it's such a reminder. And I'll be honest, I had anxiety the whole time.

Parking. You know, being the last car in the parking lot, having to park four parking lots away. 

Bruce: But what she's not trying, what she's not saying is it's a megachurch, right? So guess what? Do you think they're gonna notice the last person coming in when there's already like 17,000 people there? In a parking lot the size of Disneyland. Come on girl. 

Kaila: Probably not. But what I'm saying is my anxiety was still real and I had to pray that going in. "God calmed my heart. Settled my heart. It's okay that we're going late. And it's, okay that we're gonna be late. It's okay, I'm still gonna hear the message. I'm gonna get what you need me to out of it. My kids wanna be here."

And it was, it was a great message. And I even said, I can't wait for you to go to five o'clock service. 

Bruce: I did. I went to five o'clock service. I got there 15 minutes early with two kids, and I was able to get a cup of coffee before I hung out with my boy. 

Kaila: Yeah. Okay, So don't rub it in. But the point is, is that, that's how God wants us to love Him, and that's how God wants us to love our children, is just pure genuine love.

Bruce: Coming as we are.

Kaila: As we are. Just bring it all. 

Bruce: So the next, the next point is love in parenting. 

Kaila: And so in parenting, there's two points to this that I really want to make sure to hit home, and that is, as any good parent you want for your child, better than what you had for yourself.

Bruce: Amen.

Kaila: And we want our children to be set. We got all the mistakes, we went through all those and we don't want our children to experience those hurts and those same struggles. And so we want what's best for them. We want them to have better. But in order to do that, we need to discipline them.

And I think this is a really tough topic that many people don't want to touch on, but it's biblical. In Deuteronomy 8:5 it says, "Think about it just as a parent, disciplines a child. The Lord your God disciplines you for your own good."

It is for our good that, and it's for our children's good, that we discipline them. But now here's the thing that I wanna touch on is the word discipline actually comes [again, this is my nerd side coming out, so you're just gonna be patient]. 

Bruce: Or if you've ever watched Malcolm, the Krelboyne. 

Kaila: The word discipline actually comes from the Greek word that we use for disciple. And so when Jesus was discipling, his apostles and his followers, he was teaching them and he was guiding them, and he was showing them the way. So when we're disciplining our children, it's not just because we feel like torturing them and tormenting them and taking away their phone because it's fun. That's not the purpose. The purpose of true discipline, the way that the Bible talks about it and God expects of us and the way that He disciplines us is providing correction so that we get back on the right path, teaching us the right path and the way we should go. 

Bruce: And, I think a big thing, you know, as she said, it's not taking pleasure in tormenting our kids, right? I think often. For us, like when we discipline our kids, it hurts us. I mean, there's times I sit there and look like, " where did I fail at for our kids to sit there and do what they did?" And the reality is it goes back to our sinful nature that we're born with. Right? And it's nothing, You know, oftentimes or, sometimes there are times that we can't control what our kids do.

We can control how we react to it and parent discipline them, right? And so, You know, with our kids, I look at our oldest kid, he's about to be 18 next month. I mean, he's a kid who I love dearly, who we love dearly and we've had some challenges along the way and, you know, looking at... it just funny.

I was at school today. And it's funny that she talked about, you know, we wanna learn from our own mistakes and make sure our kids have it better than us, or we want what's better for them. We want them to have a better life than what we've had her experienced, right? And so I'm sitting there today and this girl was talking about being bad. And I said, "You know what? The best part about me being a teacher is?"

And she goes, "What?" 

I go, "I was a worst kid than you were. I already know what you're about to say and what you're thinking about doing 10 moves before you even do it."

And she's like, Huh? And she's like, "Well, I'm a bad kid". I go, "kind of described bad."

So we talked back and forth a little bit and it goes on, she has a sibling and I said, "Are they, are they worse behaved than you?" And she's like, "Yes."

I go," Have they've been incarcerated?" She said, Yes. 

We talked back and forth about what that looks like. And I go, "Well, what do your parents think?" And she's like, "Well, they discipline us."

I go, "Really?"

And I go, "Maybe they do, maybe they don't. We have to discipline our kids too."

And so needless to said a few years back, we, our son, not hanging out with the greatest friends in life, thought it was a good idea to sit there and try some stuff that is not legal here in the state of Texas. I mean, it's legal in most places, but not here in Texas.

And it happened to be a couple days before we went on vacation that we found out about it. And I, him and I, we had a conversation. My wife, him and I had a conversation together, and we pretty much said that, "Hey, you're not gonna be able to go on vacation with us. Like, it hurts my heart, but I, I need to sit here and set a precedents. Not just for you, but for your siblings as well."

And the day of vacation came and the kids came out of their mom's house, the oldest four, and, they all came out with the bags, including him. And as he came to the car, I said, "What's up buddy?"

He was like, "I'm ready to go on vacation."

And I go, "Do you not remember the words that came outta my mouth a couple days ago when I said, You're not coming with this bud?"

And his face went from glee to hoping that I was sitting there like fibbing or lying about my punishment or not falling through with my punishment. And I said, No. And he turned white as a ghost.

And he walked back in with some tears coming down and as we drove away in the car, I just started bawling. I was like, I can't believe I'm not bringing my junior with me on this trip. And it was because I loved him that I didn't bring him. And it was, regardless of all the emotions going through me, the right thing was not to bring him because I had to sit there and make those boundaries with him.

And it was because of the love that I did it, or that we did it right, and it wasn't easy. I mean, there, times in in life, do you think God wants to sit there and discipline us all the time? Do you think it feels good to Him? To have us go through certain situations in life. I mean, as a loving parent, it has to hurt him that we choose to make decisions and do things that we choose to do.

And as a good parent, He corrects us. 

Kaila: I remember that time. It was so hard for us. And parenting just in daily discipline, it is hard for me to discipline my kids. So this is not something that, you know, if it's hard for you and maybe there are a lot of behaviors that are happening in your home right now because of unchecked discipline, because your kids aren't being held accountable because there aren't those expectations.

Those are things that God says as a parent. You've gotta get that under control, and having those boundaries actually shows your kids love because it gives them that road. It says, "Hey, I love you so much. I care about the type of person you're becoming, and I want you to learn from these."

Bruce: Absolutely. And that's how the conversation at school with that girl ended day.

You know, we're sitting there talking about boundaries and talking about rules and regulations. and having to follow them in her house. The guidelines which you live by in her house, (and) the expectations that we have for our kids. She goes, "Why would you do that? This sounds like torture." Her exact words to me.

I go, you know what? It's because it's what your heart yearns for and desires. It wants to be corrected. It wants to sit there and have a rubric, a guideline. And the reality is we do have a rubric and guideline. It's called the Bible. It tells us exactly how to live our life. It tells us what to do and how to do it.

It doesn't stutter. In every area from sexual, from promiscuity, to sex to everything else in between, including drinking, including the 10 Commandments, from loving people. There's so many different things in there that the Bible covers, that if you look in our world today, people are either choosing a to believe it in a manner that's not correct.

They're able to sit there and portion off part of the Bible cause they don't wanna have to live by it or believe it. Or they make an exception for their own life because they wanna live in the life the way that they want to, which is how I lived shackled up for so long with alcohol and anger and some other stuff as well.

So what is point number three in terms of as parents By love? 

Kaila: So as parents, we have to love through conflict and we need to address it. And when I say conflict, this kind of goes back to discipline as well. Conflict isn't always an argument. It's not always heated and emotional and yelling and throwing things.

When I say conflict, it could just be a disagreement, it could be maybe misinterpretation of something that someone said. And in today's day and age, I feel like people are so quick to voice their opinions and their disagreements on social media where they can hide behind a screen. But when it comes to face to face interactions, we avoid it.

We turn away, we ignore it, we harbor it inside, and then it festers and it grows into these really ugly things because we're not just bringing to light our feelings and talking about the conflict that we're experiencing with that person, and that's not how Jesus wants us to do it. In Matthew 18:15 it says, "If another believer sins against, Go privately and point out the offense so it doesn't say air out the laundry in front of the whole classroom or even in front of the whole family.

Cuz you know this is parenting. And so I want you to think about this in terms of parenting. Our kids, we can disagree with something they're saying and instead of belittling them or being like, No, you're wrong, I'm right. I'm big, you're little. I'm smart, you're dumb. There's nothing you can do about it...

Bruce: What a good movie.

Kaila: Instead of saying that, right, we can address it appropriately and have a conversation and show our children. Okay, let's talk about that a little bit deeper and how to have communication where you're actually talking and listening. 

Bruce: Wait, listening? It is because you don't know what God gave us two ears for a reason.

This is something that we talk to our kids about all the time, especially a couple of them who like to talk off and like, "Hey, God gave you two years and only one mouth, and there's a reason for that." . And going back to the conflict, you sit here and, as believers, there's gonna be conflict.

I mean, look at your marriage or my marriage. I look at my marriage right now and my wife and I, even though I love her so much and I pretend to listen and love 99% of what she says, I don't always agree with 99% of what she says. 

Kaila: You don't?!

Bruce: No, I do. Yes ma'am. 

Um, no. The reality is we don't always agree with each. And it's okay. And as a result, in the past there'd be moments where we came at each other that weren't very godly. I mean, there'd be a conflict that turned into a flat out roar, like not very nice, pretty unethical and not godly, if you were to ask either one of us, right? And as a result, as we've become unshackled, we've able to sit there and look at it a little bit differently.

Not perfectly, but differently, right? And so there's gonna be conflict in marriage. I mean, we have conflict in marriage all the time. And what better way to show our kids what healthy conflict looks like by the then by modeling it ourselves. And then that's something that her and I are able to sit there and do, not hopefully on a regular basis, but often enough. 

And, not only is it important to sit there and model that to our kids, is being able to sit there and have those conflicting conversations, those conversations of conflict with them, and then watching them sit there and do it on their own with each other. 

Kaila: Yeah. Especially I can think our girls, as they've gotten older, I love having conversations with them as they really start to think about:

"Wait a minute, why do we do things this way? Why is it that, why, you know, why do we dress modestly or why do we have these rules about dating or why do we have rules on social media."

And so when the kids were younger, it was always just, Oh, well that's what mom and dad said. And so you just did it because you obeyed.

And now as they start to become independent thinkers and they're starting to question that, it's a great way for us to open up the conversation. And, I mean, sometimes it still comes back to: "whether you agree with me or not, I'm your parent and I said so." But you know, at least we can have a conversation where it's, "Well, what do you think about it? Well, here's what I think about it." And then coming to an understanding. 

Bruce: Correct. And so as I said, the three things that we just talked about as parents, genuine love, making sure you genuinely love your kids, just like God has called us to do. Love and parenting, which includes disciplining. It is biblical to discipline your kids, especially, in today's day and age when so many people are against it or are shy about doing so, it's okay to do so because the Bible tells me too. And then I'm going to love in conflict. And whether it's conflict with our kids, with each other, with other believers, whatever it is in life, make sure that we're able to sit there and love in conflict.

Kaila: And so if you found today's podcast, beneficial if you just pulled something from it where you're like, "Wow, that was so good. This is such a good message," one of the best ways that you can help support us in our ministry is by simply subscribing to the podcast wherever you're listening to it. That really helps get our message out there and so that we can reach more parents, and we can help more parents and sharing God's word that he's put on our heart. So if you liked this podcast. Please, please subscribe and share it with a friend. 

But if you are listening and maybe you heard some things today that you know God's speaking to your heart. Maybe you have a hard time loving your kids because there's a conflict between your personalities. Maybe behaviors are out of control, and it's a result of unchecked discipline, and you know that there aren't those boundaries set in place.

Maybe you don't know how to address conflict, and you've been eating all of these things that are bothering you and you feel like you're about to explode at any moment. This is really what makes us tick. This is why Bruce and I are here and we feel God has put it on our hearts, is we want to help impact the next generation and raise God fearing children.

But we know that starts with you. Mom or dad, whoever's listening. It starts with you. You have to be the change maker for your family, and you have to be the one to break through and unshackle your love. So if that's you, I just encourage you, reach out to us! Connect with us. You can go to our website. It's www.growingpaynes.org, and it's “paynes” like our last name, P A Y N E S. I'll link it in the show notes. Go there, read our bios, get to know a little bit more about us, and then fill out a connect form and let us know how we can connect with you and help you through that. 

Bruce: Thank you so much for joining us tonight. We're gonna sit here and, and in a word of prayer. 

Dear Father, thank you for giving us the opportunity to come sit here and talk about being unshackled. Lord, there's so many people in life who are suffering from bondage, who are suffering from being shackled to things that they've done, to things that they've experienced, the things that they think they are, Lord. 

Lord, you've set us free by dying on the cross for our sins so we didn't have to. Lord, I pray you can be with these people right now, that they can overcome these obstacles in their life and live a life full of love like you've intended us to do. Lord, I pray that you can be with all of our loved ones and family friends.

We have a lot going on. We have for people in hospitals, people passing away to surgeries, just people who are super important to us. Lord, I pray that you just be with them right now during this time, that you can be with their family so they can keep focus on you, Lord. That they can know that you are with them through these valleys, Lord, right now.

Thank you for my gorgeous wife for letting us do life together. Thank you for letting us experience these growing pains together, Lord. And I pray that we can just glorify you and always say and do. Thank you for loving us. In Jesus' name, we pray. Amen. 

Kaila: Amen.